Jews and Christians in Debate 1

Now I admit that to say "I am a Christian" in this day and age does not affirm too much. So I will clarify a little. I am a born again, spirit filled Charismatic Christian, circumcised Christian (And it is not illegal to be such in the great Israeli state). To me circumcision does not affect the salvation (yeshuah) of my soul.I worship Hashem the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but as a Gentile in Christ Jesus. And I must say I love reading the way the Rabbis interpret the Bible and explain all the contradictions and those between Rabbis. I love the way they take little points and make them big and make 20 different comments out of the extra yod in a word here and there.I love the fact that the Rabbis discuss and even raise their voice in discussions we have much to learn from the Rabbis. But not when they are speaking about Christianity or Yeshua ha notzri. Something Strange HappensFor something strange happens to many orthodox Rabbis when they begin to address the issue of the Elokim- Man Yeshua, the Yehudi, the Tzaddik (Not Rabbi Simson Raphael Hirsh or Rabbi Jacob Emden or as I am informed even Rebbe Nachman of Breslov, or Rabbi Henry Falk, but definitely Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan and Rabbi Ephraim Sprecher for whom I have great respect ). Something Strange!Something strange seems to occur. All that amazing wisdom I hear them express when learning torah and discoursing on torah seems to go to the wind. Suddenly He who would not permit his disciples to proclaim the basorah (good news) to the goyim is suddenly the goy extraordinaire, the God of the goyim!. He who told the goy lady who sought healing at his hands " The halachah does not permit me to take the childrens bread and feed it to the dogs" becomes the very dog he won't help. MMM I wonder, what happens to most orthodox Rabbis when they come across Yeshua their rejected brother? Now I would like to ask a question or two:Why does discussion turn to insult throwing or silent rejection when the name Jesus, Yeshu, Yeshua, Yeshua Yehoshua. Yoshki, that man (peloni) comes into view?What is it about the name Jesus, Yeshu, Yesu, Yeshua, Yehoshua which turns fair reason on her sweet head and brings hatred in its train?Should not a table be open for discussion and less appeal to emotion and more to the facts on the ground as they pertained from 4 BC to 135 AD when Jesus and his followers were among their brethren?Does anybody apart from me love the Rabbis except when their sense of reason seems to completely disappear when talking about Jesus and Christianity?Does me raising these questions turn me into a Jewish eating monster called "MISSIONARY"?What is the difference between the Missions of aish ha torah (and they have many) and my friend "enemy?" Baruch and other groups of Jews who claim they have found a Jew who is the Jewish messiah, and one evidence of that is that he fulfils the promises given to Abraham, that in your seed all families of the earth will be blessed?I admit that this last question may make me into a "missionary", the terrifying aspect of which sends men flying in seven directions and piles insults and curses on my head for I work for "yoshki",that man, an "el nekar" indeed I am now the greatest of terrorists. I dare to s......b Jewish souls.I come back to my first point. I love the way the Rabbis talk except when they talk about Yoshki Yeshua, Yeshua and his followers? Why is that?
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Dan Shachar replied to your post on Nov 24, 2007 at 3:10 AM.
Antony,I try to look at things from a slightly different perspective, your question may make sense to you as a Christian, and I have to admit I often think about the attitude, mental blocks, ignorance and psychology in general of this subject, and here I will add that Jews do not have extra points in being ignorant or extra spiteful when it comes to Jesus.lets take the 3 Abrahamic faiths, to me they all seem to misinterpreted this issue (to be generalized a bit), to alot of Jews, out of centuries of Christian persecution there is an automatic block when it comes to Jesus (I hope that is not a cop out explanation), to many Jews, Jesus is the persona under which many Jews have gone under the claws of the Inquisition for, been labeled as the children of Judas and then been extremely persecuted.apart from this fact, I dont want to make other far reaching assumptions, but I will say that there is ignorance on the subject, but is the ignorance different than lets say someone who lives in the west and is not a somewhat scriptures -wise or religion-wise educated person?Christians on the other hand do something which I consider to be off road as well, they idolize and worship Jesus, and that is a fundamental of the Christian faith. I believe that the persona called 'Jesus' is not as important as the message attributed to him, I also believe that idolizing him is in contradiction of those teachings attributed to Jesus. as far as my understanding goes, what I would call here the message of Jesus, is a logical social conduct, a universal spiritual way to live ones life, and I believe idolizing to be a form of blind faith, people have killed in the name of the things they idolize even if the object of idolization preached to love their enemies.in Islam, there is yet another misconception, Jesus is accepted in the Islamic scriptures as one of God's messengers, but to most Muslims (as far as I can see), that is just a piece of line they run into, in reality he is very nullified, unknown of, reduced to a gray character that its universal wisdom (much more inspiring than the one found in the Qur'an) is unheard of.---by reading the gospels (one does not have to accept all that is written there as 'gospel'.. hehe) one can see that the message brought there through the character of Jesus is wise and spiritual, and to the sharp eye, very Jewish.if one leaves for a second all the misconceptions of all the 'sides' about this issue, one can truly be enriched by such wisdom.The ultimate sacrifice in the gospels story, relates us to the enlightened indifferent sacrifice of some of the Greek philosophers that mocked the unwise ways of the authorities and the masses on their ways to the gallows or imprisonment for blasphemy for making such claims as the fact that the sun is not a god.I think that the camps around the subject are divided by either being indifferent and unversed on the issue, or uphold it in the form of blind faith on the other hand, I believe there is a middle path, where the wisdom itself can be understood and applied, and where there is no need for worship or blind faith. You said that to say one is a 'Christian' does not affirm too much today. I believe that someone that can truly be called Christian is someone that lives through the logic in the parables and the behavior of Jesus in the gospels more than someone that needs others to conform to his theology.I realize this post is very general, and Im not sure this is the right forum to really try to dive into this subject, but I appreciate your direct question.I gave you the most obvious answer when it came to many Jews and Jesus, and if someone else has a better satisfying answer, it would be great to read it.
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Uri Silberman replied to your post on Nov 24, 2007 at 11:56 PM.
Put your love for jesus aside for one moment, and try to think what he has caused to the Jewish people.
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You replied to Uri's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 1:26 AM.
I have done this before and have not achieved satisfactory answers so i come to you guys who are on the inside so to speak:For example Rambam says"Nevertheless The intents of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for his ways are not our ways, nor his thoughts our thoughts...all the deads of Jesus of Nazareth...will only serve to prepre the way for Messiah's coming and the improvement of the entire wrold,...to serve God together, as [Zephaniah 3:9] states"I will make the peoples pure of speech that they will all call upon the Name of God and serve him with one purpose" Misneh Torah Hilchot Melachim, Rabbi Touger, p 236Now if Rambam can confess to not understanding the creators intent and make postive statements on the role of Jesus in the history of Israel, and Shimson Raphael Hirsh and rabbi Jacob Emden, why can't modern Rabbis make the jump from emotion to an attempt at objective discussion with freedom of expression. Insted of insults hate, silence and sometimes even propaganda.
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Dan Shachar replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 1:34 AM.
Antony,religious figures from all Abrahamic faiths are guilty of propaganda.But the fact remains, that Christians need to prove that they have become more enlightened in their interpretation of theology, and the demonization of Jews have stopped before asking some kind of normalization of the Jesus-persona in some of the Rabbinical circles.
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Uri Silberman replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 2:27 AM.
I think you are misinterpreting what the Rambam meant. Read the following:The whole of the following passage was deleted from most of the editions published since the Venice edition of 1574."If he did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah. [Rather,] he should be considered as all the other proper and legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. G-d only caused him to arise in order to test the multitude. As it is written [Daniel 11:35], "Some of the wise men will stumble, to purge, to refine, and to clarify, until the appointed time, for it is yet to come.""Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel's prophecies [Daniel 11:14], "The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.""Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."For more information on the subject of Judaism and Jesus, read the following:http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose.""How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them.""When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err." So Rambam actually meant:[Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."
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You replied to Uri's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 10:12 AM.
I agree one hundred percent with what you understood Rambam to mean. My selection was designed to point to some of the positive aspects in Rambams assessment of Jesus of Nazareth. The negative is standard parlance but the positive aspects are as rare as gold among the present day orthodoxy. In fact your citations have brought out the positive aspects of Rambams assessment of the Jesus effect even better than my citation. The first citation you give is a general one on Rambams description of the minstry of the messiah, not specifically for Jesus of Nazareth. However Jesus historically does not stay dead but was seen by more than 500 eyewitnesses after his resurrection. This means he was killed but actually is still alive.The second citation is even more interesting and calls for serious discussion. Was Jesus of Nazareth killed by a Beit Din , or by the Romans. The New Testament says the Romans killed him, giving the trial and death by crucifxion. But Rambam claims the beit din excuted him. Is a Roman court considered a Jewish Beit din?Now notice how Rambam is quite reasonable in his statement. Points to the prophecies he thinks allude to Jesus and points to the fact perhaps that in failing to satisfy the requirements of messiah "He should be considered as all the other proper and complete kings of Davidic dynast of David". May be he wasn't referring to Jesus. For me Rambam indicates that its a mystery what the creator is up to. I will continue with this answer later.shalom
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Peter Kaltoft replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 10:19 AM.
I just have one question, Anthony.. You say that:"However Jesus historically does not stay dead but was seen by more than 500 eyewitnesses after his resurrection. This means he was killed but actually is still alive."Do you have any non-Christian sources that confirms this?
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Lila Or replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 11:18 AM.
i love jesus though im a jew. i think he who follows hate is missing something crucial. u will find aurthodocs rabbis that would speak about him resonably and respectfully, if u look for them, but they usually wouldnt give that right away, its not a jewish habbit to look aside, and jesus did take another road. i dont think jesus is responsible for the worlds desasters. i belive those who went to war on his behalf has twisted his words as manny does with each religion. but his story is surely isnt a happy one, starting with the death of the children of beit-lehem and reaching the cross. jesus is one of the most hard lessons, (though its a lesson about what is happening daily on this earth. i like the way salinger said it in 'franny and zooey', jesus is the sick laddy in the audience).Musee des Beaux Arts About suffering they were never wrong,The Old Masters: how well they understoodIts human position; how it takes placeWhile someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dullyalong;How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waitingFor the miraculous birth, there always must beChildren who did not specially want it to happen, skatingOn a pond at the edge of the wood:They never forgotThat even the dreadful martyrdom must run its courseAnyhow in a corner, some untidy spotWhere the dogs go on with their doggy life and the torturer's horseScratches its innocent behind on a tree.In Breughel's Icarus, for instance: how everything turns awayQuite leisurely from the disaster; the plowman mayHave heard the splash, the forsaken cry,But for him it was not an important failure; the sun shoneAs it had to on the white legs disappearing into the greenWater; and the expensive delicate ship that must have seenSomething amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,Had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on.-- W. H. Auden
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Uri Silberman replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 12:14 PM.
I'm wondering why you are taking parts and interpreting them to make them fit into your own thinking.Why do you assume that the Rambam talks about Bet Din and not the Roman court? Are you inferring that the Jews killed Jesus? I hope you are not going to go in the same direction that many before you have and that has cost the Jewish people millions upon millions of lives in our history.If Jesus is still alive, where is he??? I've seen some guy claiming that he is Jesus by the Western Wall, is that him? Can you prove that he is still alive?Jesus could have been the Jewish Messiah just anyone else could have been or could be. A potential Messiah is born in every generation. The fact remains that he wasn't the Messiah.
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Uri Silberman replied to Lila's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 12:15 PM.
Why am I not surprised to hear that you love Jesus?
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Lila Or replied to Uri's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 12:27 PM.
why?
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Uri Silberman replied to Lila's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 1:03 PM.
Why am I not surprised? Because I always doubted your roots in Judaism.
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You replied to Uri's post on Nov 25, 2007 at 2:45 PM.
Uri, we all interpret things with our own glasses, thats why there is room for discussion. In the Hebrew translation which I have of Rambam the word used is Beit Din with no explanation. Should I immediately interpret him on the authorty if the New Testament. That fine with me because being who i am I know that Jesus was crucified by the Romans, i have no doubt on this point. But does Rambam believe that? Do other talmudic sources on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ maintain the NT position on his death.When we look at a source we need to first seek to understand what it itself is saying. That is we need to look at the language at the words. If I pick up Rambam and immediately interpret him in term of Christian History in the New Testament, have I not done him a disservice?Must we not first seek to understand Rambam in himself. Or should we credit all of his knowledge of Jesus Christ to the New Testament. If this is the case are we saying there is no independent Jewish tradition regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.Another illustration of this point can be seen in the writings of Nachamnides. In his Diputation with Pablo Christian, he argues that Jesus Chrsit was a discple of Joshua ben Perakya (or something like that. However Joshua died around a hundred years before Jesus was born. For Nachmanides there was a very clear and obvious independent Rabbinic tradition regarding the life, death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua the Nazarene. It was sent in a completely different historical setting and yet he felt his historical understanding was the correct on. You are why I am taking parts? This is because of the limitation of space and time. You have selected those elements you considered noteworhty and laid emphasis on those, as when you said what he meant then was... and I have slected those aspects I consider most interesting as a firm beliver that Jesus was a Jew and at the same time became a saviour for many Gentiles, my self included. Obvioulsy i am a Gentile and a Christian so when I see the text of Rambam I will not see it as you see it. I see it as an outsider looking in. Plus Rambam wrote in Arabic, a language alien to most of us, he was translated into Hebrew and finally, I think into English.Notice I did ponder if the term Beit Din is used to refer to the roman court. If so we can agree together than the NT historical record of his death at the hands of the Romans is unimpugned and carries the historical authority. To demonstrate their is a question here I cite Rabbi Tougers comment on the said question: "and was executed by the court- comment "The Jews did not actually carry out the execution, for crucifixion is not one of the Torah's methods of execution.Rather, after condemning him to death, the Sanhedrin handed him over to the Roman authorities who executed him as a rebel againt Roman rule"Now notice the Rabbi's complet dependence on the authority and veracity of the New Testament for his understanding of what happened to Yeshua the Notzri. If Jesus is still alive where is he? I cite to the words of the Psalmist when prophesying of the priesly messiah "Yahuah said to my Lord Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. Yahuah will extende your might sceptre from Zion; you will rule in the midst of your enemies.He is seated at the right hand side of Elohim his Father.We know Elohim is Messaih Father because of Psalm 2I will declare the decree, Yahuah said to me, MY SON you are?Take the question in this perspective:Where is Elijah? He also is not dead. Where is Enoch?and where are the Angels?In that place where exalt spiritual and physical being are so is the Messiah. But he is higher than all of the for he is at the right hand of Yahuah. Does Yahuah have a right hand? What ever it means that where Jesus is.There are also guys claiming to be David, Moses and Elijah in hospitals in Jerusalem.When you say "the fact remains", have you made a whole host of assumptions? Do the Orthodox Rabbi claim to know who he is now? Or are they still waiting?, Is Rabbi Kaduro on the right track when he claims his name is Yehoshua the Hebrew l name of Jesus.If one does not know who it is how can one claim of a living person from the house of David, that it is not he?
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Uri Silberman replied to your post on Nov 25, 2007 at 2:54 PM.I haven't learned much about Jesus at all, and can't answer much of what you proclaim. You are obviously well versed in it and I would assume that you use your knowledge in missionary work.